User talk:DaveF/Archive 3

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Archives: 01020304

Honor, virtus et potestas: one wrong note?

Dear David, I've posted on the information page about this work the suggestion that one note in the cantus firmus in bar 18 might be wrong. While we are on the subject of textual typos, the plainsong section includes a 'perennis' with two Rs. Incidentally, I'll check soon whether my group has performed any of your scores and let you know. Mick
PS (25 April 2008): Thanks for your acknowledgement of my proofreading of this piece, but the revised version of 23 April looks the same as the previous version to me. Is it possible that you have uploaded the wrong one by mistake?

Mick - I'm worried now, because the 23rd April version on CPDL looks right to me. Bar 18 - 2nd bar of p.2 - tenor part - 2 semibreves under a ligature - e and f?

Not to worry: the e and f are there now. But there must have been some kind of time-lag, because last time I looked there were still two es in that bar. Incidentally, in the meanwhile I've looked out the Byrd scores that my group (The Art of Music, based in Luxembourg) has performed, and found six of yours: Siderum rector, Victimae paschali laudes, Peccantem me quotidie, Miserere mei Deus, Viri Galilaei and Laudate pueri Dominum, although when we sang the last-mentioned we were so depleted that I had to arrange it for 5 voices rather than 6. So thanks for the use of all these. Perhaps next time we use one, a (retrospective) acknowledgement in the programme would be in order. Mick

Absterge Domine - score error?

Dear David,
I see you noted that the source contained a semibreve at III.56.2, which you have emended to a minim. Actually, I don't think that is necessary: it looks to me as if III's semibreve G in bar 52 should be a minim, after which the whole of this part as far as b. 56 would move along one minim to the left, avoiding some rather strange harmonies! I was going to propose this solution even before I spotted the parallel passage in b. 59-63, which surely confirms my supposition?
All the best, Mick Swithinbank
PS: I am impressed to hear that stile antico have been using your editions. I admire their recordings greatly.

O Gawdelpus

you're right - what an absolute stinker. It's correct now. Thank you. I find this piece so low in interest that I must have switched off by that point. You were also kind enough not to point out "spririt" in the translated text, but that will just have to stay for now...--DaveF 07:57, 22 April 2008 (PDT)

Byrd MIDI files

Hi David,

Great job over the years with the Byrd collection.

Too bad you feel it necessary to pull the Byrd sources, since listening to a score in the editor allows you to follow the work, and adjust your vocal line to stand out for musical practice.

Can I encourage you to make the MIDI files available for singers who wish to listen to the works, and perhaps practice them ? There is little danger of abuse of a MIDI file, and the benefits are significent.

Johnhenryfowler 03:20, 6 March 2008 (PST)

Thank you, David Fraser

C clef neume.gif The C Clef neume award
  for comprehensive contributions in Early Music

is hereby awarded to David Fraser for his excellent, comprehensive editions of the choral works of William Byrd . — Chucktalk Giffen

Death of St. Edmund Campion

Honourable Mr. Fraser, I was not able to find anywhere all 30 stanzas of compose of William Byrd "Why do I use my paper, ink and pen?" which you have cited under the song. Would it be possible to give me kindly an advice where I could find it? Thank you very much for your admirable work. Much greetings, K, friarforsaken

Dear K.,

I don't know of any easily-accessible source of this poem. A copy of the book A true reporte of the death... is available either in the Huntington Library (San Marino, California, USA) or online through Early English Books Online. Membership of this is usually restricted to academic institutions, although some large public libraries may offer access. Alternatively, if the Society of Jesus has a headquarters near you (in London this would be Farm Street, but I don't know where you are), they may have a facsimile of the book, or some other source of the poem.

And "Honourable" is very kind, although the only honour I've ever received is the one on the lines immediately above!

Best wishes, DF

Dowland Scans

Hi Dave,

I'm busy cross-posting material at "Art Song Central" and there are John Dowland scores there which could be new editions of existing works pages if you deem it worthwhile. Have a look and see if they add anything. They do have lute tablature. The source is: Stainer & Bell edition, ed. Fellowes ©1920. It's not a lot of work to cross-post them if they add anything. (I give you a link to one as an example.)     Johnhenryfowler 10:26, 18 July 2008 (PDT)

Dowland - Burst forth, my tears
Dowland - Can she excuse my wrongs?
Dowland - Come Again, Sweet Love Doth Now Invite
Dowland - Dear, if you change
Dowland - Flow my tears
Dowland - If my complaints could passions move
Dowland - My thoughts are winged with hope
Dowland - Now, O now, I needs must part
Dowland - Who ever thinks or hopes of love
Link to ASC Page for "Who ever thinks or hopes of love"
John - For some reason I can't open any of the files at ASC - just get the error message "File does not begin with '%PDF'. I wonder whether they are created by a newer edition of Acrobat than I'm using - I have the full product version 5. From what you say, I would have thought that any editions with lute tablature would be welcome at CPDL, since so few of the editions there seem to include it. My only doubt would be that Fellowes's editions, at least of Byrd, are notoriously inaccurate. And the other problem with working from his editions is that any editorial work in them is still in copyright, since Fellowes lived until 1951. --DaveF 04:00, 24 July 2008 (PDT)
Hi David, I've made a ZIP file here. Containing the Dowland songs. Hopefully you won't have any problem opening the zip file. Let me know if it is desirable to post them, and I'll do the rest.Johnhenryfowler 04:45, 11 August 2008 (PDT)
John - Thanks for that; I can open them now. Yes, they're good-looking scores, right enough, especially the tablature - I like the way the old-fashioned engraving allows the backwards stem on the semibreve, which Sibelius can't reproduce. However, there must be a question regarding directly reproducing editions that incorporate Fellowes's editorial work, which remains in copyright until 2021 in the US and EU. Perhaps that's something on which the other admins will have more informed views. And Fellowes's editorial work - i.e. meddling - is certainly there, even at a quick first glance: looking at the second bar of Can she excuse, for example, he inserts an unwarranted B flat into the melody, justifying this by accompanying it with the fairly obviously defective lute part from the 1st and 2nd editions, rather than the corrected 3rd and 4th. Naturally, being Fellowes, there isn't an editorial note in sight to explain any of this. And aren't these songs supposed to be in 4 parts plus lute? Sorry to go on; Fellowes generally has this effect on me. They're still a great deal better than many of the contributions on the Dowland pages and, providing the copyright situation is clear, it would be good to have links to them.
--DaveF 07:34, 11 August 2008 (PDT)

Byrd a 3


I'm very sorry to read of your plan to remove Sibelius source files, having just used your delightful edition of the three part mass to print a transposition in D on letter size paper for a concert at the Berkeley Musicfest. We found only one typo: Agnus m 40 cantus should read mi sol re fa. Thanks, and all the best from California, Richard Mix 11:08, 25 August 2008 (PDT)

Yes, of course that bar is wrong; thanks for apparently being the first of many downloaders to notice (or at least to tell me). There's actually one more, although not so painful to the ear as that one: Gloria bar 68, bassus, should read mi - sol (a - c' in my edition). Corrected edition to follow soon.
--DaveF 07:52, 2 September 2008 (PDT)

Salve Regina (1605) (William Byrd) page missing


Hi Dave,

I noticed that the page mentioned in the section title is missing and went searching for it in the deletion log archive. The only thing I found was a page, created only once by a spammer on 1 Feb 2008 and deleted by me the next day. If there ever was an earlier version, it was lost and does not appear in the logs. You originally uploaded the files for the 1605 setting on 25 March 2006. Do you want to (re)create the page for this work? I restored the deleted spam page so that you can take a look. Thanks! -- Chuck

I don't think that page ever existed; there was a good reason why I never created it (PC/Server crash while I was posting, or something like that) and I just never got round to it thereafter. I'll do it shortly; will be able to copy most of the details from the page for the 1591 setting. --DaveF 07:09, 20 September 2008 (PDT)

Reply by: Chucktalk Giffen 07:40, 20 September 2008 (PDT)


Thanks Dave! I wondered what had happened and am glad that you will take care of it.

Making contact

Dear David (if I may)

Your editions are excellent and it is very generous of you to spend the time making them available. I am keen to make contact with you to discuss a proposal. Could you email me on A

Broken link

Hi Dave. The link to the PDF of your "low voices" edition of Mass for Four Voices (William Byrd) seems to be broken. I'm not sure why... perhaps you could upload a replacement file? Also, I don't suppose you have the time to do another version a tone down from your "high voices" edition, so it would be suitable for SATB? TIA --Bobnotts talk 16:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Rob -
I'll look into the missing file problem - possibly one that's been withdrawn for revision. Really don't have time to do a transposed version at the moment - isn't JHF's edition down a tone in F minor?

"Cantiones sacræ" facsimiles?

Dear David,

thank you very much for all your thorough editions on the CPDL! If only everyone could care so much …

I noticed that you transcribed nearly all pieces from Byrd's and Tallis' "Cantiones sacræ". Do you own reprints of this publication? I'm very interested in "O Sacrum convivium" and would like to edit this work as the scores already posted on the CPDL contain disputable issues regarding notes and lyrics (alignment and syllable durations).

Is there a chance getting scans of original prints, or do you know a good source (for Germans) where to get them?

All best wishes, Robert

There are two sources that I know of where you might get facsimiles of the original print:
A complete set of partbooks published by Severinus Press (;
On microfilm from the library of Christ Church, Oxford ( - ordering information on this page, with a link to the page showing the contents of the individual reels (Tallis & Byrd are at Mus. 962-967).
Your local library may be able to order either of these sources for you to save you the expense of purchase.
Regarding the disputable issues you mention in the existing editions, I note that none of them distinguishes between printed and "editorial" text (expanded text-repeat marks), which might account for some of the issues with text underlay. Anyway, best of luck with locating sources. If you send me a personal message on the forums using the link on my main user page, we may be able to discuss the matter further. --DaveF 21:37, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Mass for 4

Hi David,

I was just wondering if you'd had any luck with the re-scoring/editing of Byrd's Mass for 4 voices (low scoring for ATTB) - I would love to use it in a concert I am doing soon with a 4 piece consort, but can't get hold of it currently as it has been withdrawn. Is there any way I might be able to get a copy of this score?



Done now - see the Mass for Four Voices (William Byrd) page. Please let me know of any possible improvements and (of course) errors - hope there won't be any of the latter as I've proof-read the edition pretty carefully. I tend to Google visitors to this page, so have read a bit about you and your ensemble - it looks very interesting and exciting, and I wish you well. --DaveF 21:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)