Difference between revisions of "Template talk:Lyricist"

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Would someone (I'm thinking Chuck or Carlos) be able to extend this template to handle up to 3 individuals? It's rare that this is necessary but it is for [[O ruddier than the cherry (George Frideric Handel)]]. TIA --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 03:55, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
 
Would someone (I'm thinking Chuck or Carlos) be able to extend this template to handle up to 3 individuals? It's rare that this is necessary but it is for [[O ruddier than the cherry (George Frideric Handel)]]. TIA --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 03:55, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
  
:Done! You can check the results on the page you cited. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Carlos http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/skins/monobook/mail_icon.gif] 14:51, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
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:Done! You can check the results on the page you cited. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[[File:Email.gif|link=User_talk:Carlos]] 14:51, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
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::Many thanks for this, Carlos, and for updating the score page I mentioned. I've just added a link to this on [[Help:CPDL Templates]]. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 19:23, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
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== Further development requested ==
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On [[Edward (Burkhart M. Schürmann)|this score page]] we have two lyricists who require their dates mentioned on the page. The current arrangement is a little unsatisfactory: would it be possible to have the option to put each composer's dates after their name, instead of at the end of the line? Thanks. --[[User:Bobnotts|Bobnotts]] <small>[[User talk:Bobnotts|'''talk''']]</small> 16:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
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:Hi Rob, do you really think it necessary to add the lyricist dates in each works page? I believe the ideal would be to create a stub page for each lyricist and add the dates there. Would that be OK with you? —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 14:48, 22 May 2011 (CDT)
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==Dual bug and piping==
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On [[Darthulas Grabesgesang, Op. 42, No.3 (Johannes Brahms)|this page]] the text really should read "'''Lyricist:''' Johann Gottfried Herder (create page) after Ossian (pseudonym of James Macpherson (1736-1796))".   So add to the wishlist:
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#"create page" for red-linked dual authors
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#piping option for pseudonyms, if not a fantastically complicated template to do it automatically
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#optional text in place of "and" or simply a kludge to list page on <nowiki>{{LyricistSettingsList|Ossian|cols=2}}</nowiki>. Is there some CiteLyr like CiteCat? [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 04:55, 22 May 2011 (CDT)
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::Thanks for the suggestions, Richard.
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::1. Done.
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::2. It was not clear to me what you meant by 'piping options'. Do you mean that if someone puts James Macpherson as the lyricist, it should include the work in the Ossian category (or vice-versa)? Currently [[Ossian]] already redirects to Macpherson's page.
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::3. Done. You can use the parameter ''connective='' to replace "and" with any other word (or phrase).
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::Regards, —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 15:34, 22 May 2011 (CDT)
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:::Thanks, that was quick, and the new [[Johann Gottfried Herder]] page looks great!   
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:::2. I think you're right: category redirects do the job (if shortening the links doesnt make cpdl's system more efficient).  I was thinking a deluxe version might show "X, pseudonym of Y" whether one types "X" or "Y". 
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:::3. (Terribly fussy, but) could the connective be tweaked further to put a comma: "'''Lyricist:''' Johann Gottfried Herder, after Ossian"? Other users of "connective=" might then have to remember to add the space after the name, a distinct drawback... [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 16:33, 23 May 2011 (CDT)
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::::An afterthought re2: might there not be an eventual use for (source)|Anonymous piping, or is that best left to [[Category talk:Anonymous lyricist settings]]? [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] 20:51, 23 May 2011 (CDT)
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*Oh, now I see what you meant with #2 – that would be quite complicated to code, and its use would be so restricted that I don't think it's worth the effort, sorry! Regarding the ''(source)|Anonymous'' piping, wouldn't it be more simple to write something as the following:
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:'''Lyricist:''' [[Anonymous lyricist|Anonymous]], from [[Cancionero de Palacio]]
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*Request #3 was easy, the template was slightly tweaked and now a comma can be used ''inside'' the connective text, as exemplified in [[Darthulas Grabesgesang, Op. 42, No. 3 (Johannes Brahms)|Darthulas Grabesgesang]]'s page. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]]&nbsp;[{{fullurl:User talk:Carlos}} {{mail}}] 22:20, 23 May 2011 (CDT)
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==Biblical books==
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Would it be possible to have the template recognize '''|(Name) (arabic chapter number)''' as a biblical book? I dream of entries like John 20:19-20 being further subcategorized under Category:John chapter 20. [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] ([[User talk:Richard Mix|talk]]) 06:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
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:Hi Richard! I think that this template is not the most adequate for biblical citations. It was meant for referencing real people, not books. I propose the creation of a new template specifically for biblical citation, in the form {{tl|Bible|Matthew|3|21-24|John|4|10-22}}. We'd be able to make it categorize pages under book name and chapter, as you suggest, and it could be used either in place of Lyricist or at the "Text & translations" section. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [[User talk:Carlos|(talk)]] 21:18, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
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== Categorization ==
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Are there hidden categories added by this template? My first thought for making [[Ardo, sì, ma non t'amo]] less misleading was to add Tasso outside Template:Lyricist and add [[:Category:Torquato Tasso works]], [[:Category:Lyrics by Torquato Tasso]] or some such for the use of the Autolisters, but {{CC|Works with texts by known authors}} doesn't explain how that works.
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I used dual + "connective=" to achieve what I hope is the desired result, but ''Lyricists'' would be better as a  singular. [[User:Richard Mix|Richard Mix]] ([[User talk:Richard Mix|talk]]) 02:01, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
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:Hi Richard, the Lyricist template makes use of just a single category ("Works with texts by known authors") alongside with hidden links to non-existent text pages in the form "Torquato Tasso settings". But it was designed in such a way that only works pages are listed inside the [[Torquato Tasso|lyricist page]]. Text pages like [[Ardo, sì, ma non t'amo]] are not included in such lists, no matter the syntax used inside or outside the template {{CT|Lyricist}}. —[[User:Carlos|Carlos]] [[User talk:Carlos|(talk)]] 21:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
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== "Probably the composer" option ==
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I have re-formatted the list of settings ordered by lyricist [[ChoralWiki:Lyricist_settings|here]], but I have run against a roadblock of sorts. What to do with lyricists who are composers? For example, [[William Billings]], whose lyrics were also used by [[Daniel Read]], [[Jacob French]], and others. It would help, I think, if what appears in the {{tl|Lyricist}} template is ''always'' a person, because as it is dpl can't tell who is "Composer" or "Probably the composer". So I propose eliminating this possibility in this template, and changing all the pages where it occurs so that the Lyricist is named. In cases where there is doubt, I feel the "probably" part should appear in the Description, since this calls for citation of where that surmise came from.
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Category {{CiteCat|Composer(?) lyricist settings}} is where the works with Lyricists called "Composer" or "Probably the composer" are stored. It should maybe be renamed, and its scope increased – there are many more examples that should appear in that category (15 just for Billings), but finding them out should be automated.
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I have some ideas about how this might work, but it appears to me it can't work if one of our Lyricists is called "Probably the composer". Or maybe there's another way to look at this. — [[User:Bcjohnston523|Barry Johnston]] [[User talk:Bcjohnston523|(talk)]] 03:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 03:09, 5 January 2020

Extending this template

Would someone (I'm thinking Chuck or Carlos) be able to extend this template to handle up to 3 individuals? It's rare that this is necessary but it is for O ruddier than the cherry (George Frideric Handel). TIA --Bobnotts talk 03:55, 12 September 2008 (PDT)

Done! You can check the results on the page you cited. —Carlos Email.gif 14:51, 12 September 2008 (PDT)
Many thanks for this, Carlos, and for updating the score page I mentioned. I've just added a link to this on Help:CPDL Templates. --Bobnotts talk 19:23, 12 September 2008 (PDT)

Further development requested

On this score page we have two lyricists who require their dates mentioned on the page. The current arrangement is a little unsatisfactory: would it be possible to have the option to put each composer's dates after their name, instead of at the end of the line? Thanks. --Bobnotts talk 16:31, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Hi Rob, do you really think it necessary to add the lyricist dates in each works page? I believe the ideal would be to create a stub page for each lyricist and add the dates there. Would that be OK with you? —Carlos Email.gif 14:48, 22 May 2011 (CDT)

Dual bug and piping

On this page the text really should read "Lyricist: Johann Gottfried Herder (create page) after Ossian (pseudonym of James Macpherson (1736-1796))". So add to the wishlist:

  1. "create page" for red-linked dual authors
  2. piping option for pseudonyms, if not a fantastically complicated template to do it automatically
  3. optional text in place of "and" or simply a kludge to list page on {{LyricistSettingsList|Ossian|cols=2}}. Is there some CiteLyr like CiteCat? Richard Mix 04:55, 22 May 2011 (CDT)
Thanks for the suggestions, Richard.
1. Done.
2. It was not clear to me what you meant by 'piping options'. Do you mean that if someone puts James Macpherson as the lyricist, it should include the work in the Ossian category (or vice-versa)? Currently Ossian already redirects to Macpherson's page.
3. Done. You can use the parameter connective= to replace "and" with any other word (or phrase).
Regards, —Carlos Email.gif 15:34, 22 May 2011 (CDT)
Thanks, that was quick, and the new Johann Gottfried Herder page looks great!
2. I think you're right: category redirects do the job (if shortening the links doesnt make cpdl's system more efficient). I was thinking a deluxe version might show "X, pseudonym of Y" whether one types "X" or "Y".
3. (Terribly fussy, but) could the connective be tweaked further to put a comma: "Lyricist: Johann Gottfried Herder, after Ossian"? Other users of "connective=" might then have to remember to add the space after the name, a distinct drawback... Richard Mix 16:33, 23 May 2011 (CDT)
An afterthought re2: might there not be an eventual use for (source)|Anonymous piping, or is that best left to Category talk:Anonymous lyricist settings? Richard Mix 20:51, 23 May 2011 (CDT)
  • Oh, now I see what you meant with #2 – that would be quite complicated to code, and its use would be so restricted that I don't think it's worth the effort, sorry! Regarding the (source)|Anonymous piping, wouldn't it be more simple to write something as the following:
Lyricist: Anonymous, from Cancionero de Palacio
  • Request #3 was easy, the template was slightly tweaked and now a comma can be used inside the connective text, as exemplified in Darthulas Grabesgesang's page. —Carlos Email.gif 22:20, 23 May 2011 (CDT)

Biblical books

Would it be possible to have the template recognize |(Name) (arabic chapter number) as a biblical book? I dream of entries like John 20:19-20 being further subcategorized under Category:John chapter 20. Richard Mix (talk) 06:58, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Hi Richard! I think that this template is not the most adequate for biblical citations. It was meant for referencing real people, not books. I propose the creation of a new template specifically for biblical citation, in the form {{Bible|Matthew|3|21-24|John|4|10-22}}. We'd be able to make it categorize pages under book name and chapter, as you suggest, and it could be used either in place of Lyricist or at the "Text & translations" section. —Carlos (talk) 21:18, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

Categorization

Are there hidden categories added by this template? My first thought for making Ardo, sì, ma non t'amo less misleading was to add Tasso outside Template:Lyricist and add Category:Torquato Tasso works, Category:Lyrics by Torquato Tasso or some such for the use of the Autolisters, but Works with texts by known authors doesn't explain how that works. I used dual + "connective=" to achieve what I hope is the desired result, but Lyricists would be better as a singular. Richard Mix (talk) 02:01, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Richard, the Lyricist template makes use of just a single category ("Works with texts by known authors") alongside with hidden links to non-existent text pages in the form "Torquato Tasso settings". But it was designed in such a way that only works pages are listed inside the lyricist page. Text pages like Ardo, sì, ma non t'amo are not included in such lists, no matter the syntax used inside or outside the template Lyricist. —Carlos (talk) 21:27, 29 December 2018 (UTC)

"Probably the composer" option

I have re-formatted the list of settings ordered by lyricist here, but I have run against a roadblock of sorts. What to do with lyricists who are composers? For example, William Billings, whose lyrics were also used by Daniel Read, Jacob French, and others. It would help, I think, if what appears in the {{Lyricist}} template is always a person, because as it is dpl can't tell who is "Composer" or "Probably the composer". So I propose eliminating this possibility in this template, and changing all the pages where it occurs so that the Lyricist is named. In cases where there is doubt, I feel the "probably" part should appear in the Description, since this calls for citation of where that surmise came from.

Category Composer(?) lyricist settings is where the works with Lyricists called "Composer" or "Probably the composer" are stored. It should maybe be renamed, and its scope increased – there are many more examples that should appear in that category (15 just for Billings), but finding them out should be automated.

I have some ideas about how this might work, but it appears to me it can't work if one of our Lyricists is called "Probably the composer". Or maybe there's another way to look at this. — Barry Johnston (talk) 03:07, 5 January 2020 (UTC)