Template talk:Language

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Sort key

Please could any of the admins edit this template to allow for a "ninth" optional sort key parameter? I believe we'd have to add the code in red for each "Category:Works in" (not sure):

[[Category:Works in {{{5}}}|{{{9|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]]

We'd use it like this:

{{Language|Galician|9=Que pasa o redor de min}}

Thanks! -- CarlosTalk 13:59, 30 April 2008 (PDT)

Hi Carlos. I see you've already noticed how I made Template:Lang have the requested property already - I should have done the same for the present template (since Lang has always been intended as a shorthand for Language). At the time I changed the other template, I was very busy and forgot to change this one to match ... it has beed done, now. -- Chucktalk Giffen 14:09, 30 April 2008 (PDT)
Hi Chuck! Wow, what a coincidence! Can you believe I hadn't seen yet your changes to Template:Lang! We even thought of the same parameter number, LOL! I made the suggestion because right now I am editing ¿Qué pasa ó redor de min? (Adrian Cuello) and noticed the need of sort keys. Thanks for the ultra fast reply. CarlosTalk 14:30, 30 April 2008 (PDT)

Categories Works in language

When this template is applied to a work page, it categorizes the page in categories "Works in language", one for each of the languages specified in the template. I propose that these categories be hidden in the bottom of the work page (by just adding HIDDENCAT to the template), because these categories are already linked to from the names of the languages themselves (Language: English). Any objection? —Carlos Email.gif 19:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Hummm, forget about the above, it wouldn't work. The magic word HIDDENCAT has to be placed inside the categories themselves, not in this template! —Carlos Email.gif 18:09, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Category:Macaronic texts

Where would one find works using '2' as the first parameter? Latin & German describes Via Crucis (Franz Liszt) pretty well, but is less useful for Psallite, unigenito (Singt und klingt) (Michael Praetorius) or In dulci jubilo, unless one remembers to resort to the multi-category search. Richard Mix 07:54, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Good point. I've modified the Text template so that, if it is used in the form

then it categorizes the page in Macaronic texts. I think it would be unwise to have the Language template do this, since it is also used to describe the different languages represented in various (translated) editions. – Chucktalk Giffen 13:39, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Very nice! I think editorial translations should be noted in Ed. Notes, but there are genuine bi-lingual works like The Creation where both languages should be noted in General info. (Verdi might be an even better example, in that Haydn- like Mendelssohn- was much less 'hands on' with translation work.) With your solution editors' singing translations would still use {{Cat|language. Will we at some point want this template to include {{Language|one of 2| for non-macaronic multi-version works? Richard Mix 08:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Another special case

We have many works that could perhaps best be categorized as unspecified, yet list Language: as English, Latin (but with English verses!) or Unknown. I've created Works in unspecified language (ought I have chosen uppercase as in Works in Unknown language?) for such cases. A potential difficulty is with works that have pointed texts supplied; {{Language|2|Given|unspecified}} would categorize them as macaronic... neat tweek if someone knows how would be to have it display: Language: unspecified Richard Mix (talk) 05:34, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Richard, I'm not sure if we need to treat this as a special case; how is it different from Hymn tunes, for example? For them we have been simply stripping out the Language template. Can these Anglican chants be sung in any other language that English (and eventually Latin)? Otherwise, another option would be to use the normal {{Language|2|English|Latin}} and add these works to a new category for "Editions with missing underlay text" (would it make sense for you?). —Carlos (talk) 12:19, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Richard and Carlos, I understand both your viewpoints, I think. By itself, a hymn tune (without accompanying text), is a legitimate entity, as is an Anglican chant Psalm tone. To categorize such works as "missing underlay text" seems an inappropriate designation; hence, I think that "unspecified text" might be a better choice. I don't think that a dual English-Latin Language template designation is appropriate unless there are one or more editions with English and Latin texts supplied (pointed or underlay). I think Richard is asking for the language template to be modified to allow for some editions in one language and other editions in another language that happens to be unspecified, without the work being classified as macaronic. We have various kinds of text situations: single language works, works with a translated underlay different from the original text, works with two or more alternative texts and/or translations underlaid (eg. Latin and English, or German and French), works which are "macaronic" (having two languages, usually alternating back and forth), wordless texts (sung to "ah" or "oh" or hummed, etc.), and works with unspecified texts (by virtue of their being hymn tunes or Psalm tones, such as Anglican chant tones). I've no problem with the latter situation being put in an Unspecified text category. – Chucktalk Giffen 15:33, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Carlos, Hymn tunes are a whole other head-scratcher to me, with varied page names like Gelobt sei Gott and Angel Voices (Monk). Are all of them outside Sheet music? Category:Editions missing underlay text sounds like a maintenance category and doesn't quite make sense to me for chants (which lend themselves equally well to Korean), or even User:Renato Calcaterra's many editions which make the defensible decision to leave any editorial underlay up to the performers.

I had forgotten though that I have access to the template code: shall I add these following 2 lines instead of stripping the template from the pages?
|case: Unspecified='''Language:''' [[:Category:Works in unspecified language|Unspecified]]{{{2|}}}<!-- -->[[Category:Works in unspecified language]] Richard Mix (talk) 00:18, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi Richard, you and Chuck have convinced me of the appropriateness of the new category Works in unspecified language! As said above, it'll also be useful for categorizing the Hymn tunes without having to remove the Language template. I'll make the required changes to include the "Language: Unspecified" option, if you don't mind; your suggestion will work fine, but I'd like to make the template display "Unspecified language" instead of simply "Unspecified". And regarding your Hymn tunes question, the criterion for a page to be included in Sheet music is to have at least one valid edition, regardless of it having or not underlay text. Just a last reminder: the template that categorizes works as macaronic is {{Text}}, not this one, so there's no problem in using {{Language|2|English|Unspecified}}, for instance. Regards, —Carlos (talk) 01:19, 18 May 2013 (UTC)
Done! I changed my mind about adding language after Unspecified, it would be too redundant. —Carlos (talk) 03:04, 18 May 2013 (UTC)