Talk:A sure foundation (Martin Luther)

Page title?

Perhaps this would be better as "A sure foundation (Martin Luther)" or "A sure foundation (Stuart Moffatt)" (I prefer the former). What would you prefer? Users encountering the current title will perhaps expect to see Luther's original tune, with lyrics beginning "Ein feste Burg". I thought maybe the current title could be kept, but Lyricist then gets awkward. — Barry Johnston (talk) 21:28, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

Barry, this is a puzzle to me. I have to say I am confused at times. I have tried to work out what a simple answer might be, but cannot see one. A single text can be set to many different tunes, and a single melody used by many different texts. In itself that is not so difficult, until we find that a melody is so closely associated with a particular text that its name is the text, as in this case, Ein' feste Burg. We also then find that there are translations of the text, some of which may have their own melody, others the original. How do we construct then titles for pages that are meaningful and helpful to the readers?

I thought the convention was "Title_(Composer)" and as Martin Luther's melody is known as Ein' feste Burg, I expected the title to be "Ein feste Burg (Martin Luther)" or some variant of that if it had already existed, as we have for Bach "Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott, BWV 303 (Johann Sebastian Bach)". But that doesn't quite work as there is eg a page "Ein feste Burg (Martin Agricola)", where the title is derived from the text not the name of the melody, and as the text is translated into English as A safe stronghold and A mighty fortress, there are pages 'A mighty fortress (Martin Luther)' and 'A safe stronghold our God is still (Martin Luther)' both of which contain settings of Luther's melody Ein feste Burg. The presence of these pages tells me that my understanding is not correct, but I could not find a better one.

As a reader for two reasons I would want to find A safe stronghold and A mighty fortress under Ein' feste Burg, but that is not the way to find them. You have to go through Luther (ignoring the search facility!). The two reasons for wanting this are of course, they both use the tune Ein' feste Burg and they are both translations of that text.

So thank you for making your suggestions. 'A sure foundation' makes sense, if Title is a reference to the text not the melody's name. It is not a translation of Luther's text Ein' feste Burg. So 'A sure foundation (Martin Luther)' as you suggest is probably right, for the melody belongs to Martin Luther. We lose the link to the name of the melody Ein' feste Burg, but is that important?

I had a similar problem with the use of Auld Lang Syne for an Irish hymn. In that case I did not use Auld Lang Syne as its title but just reference the hymn page back to Auld Lang Syne. I did not put a link the other way primarily because I did not want to mess up Auld Lang Syne and secondly as I did not think it added anything useful to that page. In the case of Ein' feste Burg, should we add links to the Ein' feste Burg page for 'A safe stronghold' and 'A mighty fortress'? I have not found a page for Luther's melody though. Is there one?

Thank for pulling me up! Kind regards. Stuartm (talk) 23:11, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

You're very welcome! I have made all the changes, I hope I got it right. Please check and make sure. You are right, links are a good way to show relationships. You needn't worry, because different editors have done it several different ways in the past. In the case where the same tune is used, and the same words or translations of them, then most times editors have put them on the page with the original (notice that I found one of these under A mighty fortress (Martin Luther), that I merged). Another "fuzzy" consideration is: how commonly are different versions known and used? The factor that was important to me: Your words are not a translation, and you should be properly attributed as the author of your words. We can always use links in Description or AlsoSee to call attention to relationships. Thanks for your careful thoughts.

Also, did you notice the less-famous BWV 302? Another of Bach's in-my-spare-time "little" harmonic adventures! — Barry Johnston (talk) 01:51, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Barry, thank you for your corrections and sorting the cross referencing out. I had noticed the BWV 302, and now remember puzzling about why it had its own page and had no reference either from or to the 'main' page. My mind had not linked it with you as by the time our discussion had begun I had shelved the questions. I think I supposed that it was right that BWV302 should not appear on the page for BWV303 and therefore a distinct page is correct. As for the missing cross references, well I am glad to see that you have provided them now on this page.

What a mind Bach had! Why produce only one harmony when there is an almost limitless - at least in his mind - number of possibilities? Quite a different approach from my days as a school boy when we would use a passing note to get out of a tricky situation. The master however to our chagrin always noticed when it had been entered in order to avoid a parallel fifth. I later learned that the greater use of passing notes, even where unnecessary, made it more likely that the one that was essential would less likely be noticed. I am sure Bach was never guilty of such a practice.

I found it helpful to read some of your other talk contributions. The one in which you spoke about editorial freedom - Please give xyz as much editorial freedom as you yourself have, or something like that sticks in my mind - was particularly so, in the way that you explained how there were different approaches, as you say also above, to solving some of the problems that we face, and also in the way you approached presenting answers to the questions raised and real historical issues involved. So, on the basis of non-interference I have not cross-referenced BWV302 and 303. It is your prerogative, but if you would like me to try I shall, you can then increase my understanding by telling me where I got it wrong, how and why.

Stuartm (talk) 09:30, 9 November 2022 (UTC)