Category talk:Composers

New subcateogry

How can I add a new nationality-subcategory for catalan composers? For example: Mateu Fletxa el Vell, Mateu Fletxa el Jove, Joan Cererols, Joan Baptista Cabanilles...

Thanks--CarlesVA 04:44, 15 September 2005 (PDT)

Catalan composers ...

I will add that as a subcategory. All composers listed as Catalan should also be listed as Spanish.

Rafael Ornes Manager, CPDL

Please add Ukrainian as a subcategory of composers by nationality.

Dmitri Bortniansky (actually Dmytro Bortniansky) was a Ukrainian composer, not a Russian, even though he spent much of his musical life in St. Petersburg. ~Chuck Giffen.

Why Shouldn't John Rutter have a composer page?

I am preparing an number of items by the Irish Romantic composer, Sir Robert Prescott Stewart, and in the process began a composer page. Someone else marked this page for deletion on the basis that there are no scores posted to CPDL by Stewart. The immediate issue of the scores by Stewart will be resolved and is in any event not a major issue, because I created the page off line, and it is trivial to re-load it.

However, to me, this begs a larger question: "should a composer with a significant output of choral music have a composer page if and only if there are scores on CPDL associated with that composer?"

Because it is pertinent to this thread, I excerpt this comment by Bobnotts from the page Talk:Robert_Prescott_Stewart

I suggest that the composer information belongs on some other resource such as Wikipedia.

I'm interested in what others think about this matter.

Noel Stoutenburg 1624 GMT 8 February, 2007

In my opinion, there is no point in having a composer page for a composer who isn't represented on CPDL. This resource is for choral works primarily and also for texts and translations of choral works. Again, in my opinion, extended biographical information and lists of choral works belong on a resource like Wikipedia. Bobnotts 16:13, 8 February 2007 (PST)

OK. You see biographical information and opus lists of choral compositions belong on Wikipedia [Big Wiki], instead of this ChoralWiki. So, I spent some time considering the advantages of listing biographical information and lists of choral works on Big Wiki for composers of choral music who do not yet have a score listed here. One advantage I perceived was that putting material on Big Wiki reduces the amount of storage space required for the Choral Wiki. Another advantage I perceived was that the standards for pages on Big Wiki ager generally higher than on Choral WIKI, so more of us posting regularly on Big Wiki, and up to the higher standards there, will improve the general quality of the editing on this Choral Wiki. Still, another advantage I perceived was, .... well, I really can't come up with a third advantage. What other advantages are there to having choral related material on BIG WIKI, instead of on this Choral Wiki?

Then I turned my attention to the disadvantages of putting material on Big Wiki instead of the Choral Wiki. One disadvantage is the lessened control over content that would be had by putting material on Big Wiki. Instead of a few hundred people being able to edit what is posted, the number who could edit pages is orders of magnitude higher. The second disadvantage I see is that the people on Big Wiki may not share the same priorities with respect to music. I note in the list_of_Herbert_Howells'_compositions that choral music comes after Orchestral music, chamber music, and keyboard music.

I argue that the concept of adding a page for a composer (or author, or arranger) who does not yet have scores in the Choral Wiki is a direct parallel to the concept of the stub that is part of the Wiki environment. A composer page for a composer who has no scores yet available on CPDL is a stub, and I think the possibility another CPDL user might find that stub, and subsequently find one or more choral compositions composed by the that composer, because of the existence of the composer page on Choral wiki investigate the composer, and set some of the that composers compositions and upload them to CPDL. The existence of the page thus helps to preserve the material created by that composer.

I do not agree with your assessment that CPDL is a resource for scores and texts / translations only. I understand that the Site is bigger than that, and is intended to be a portal site, where choral musicians--directors and singers--would stop first to find resources to fill musical needs, whether it is scores, or the name of a tour organizer. In support of this, I quote from the [page] which was to the best of my knowledge, authored by the site owner himself: "As well as scores, you can use CPDL to find texts and lyrics, translations, and information about composers -- all in the public domain and free to use." Raf does not say that you will find information only about those composers whose scores are on (or are link to from) CPDL.

Noel Stoutenburg 1018 GMT 9 February, 2007

I have previously been deleting composer pages with no scores listed that have been marked for deletion. For the present, I shall refrain from doing this at least if the page provides a list of choral works (even though CPDL has no editions). I do question just where a composer such as John Rutter belongs, since he is (1) alive and (2) has his works published through commercial music publishing channels (and the works are under copyright, not in the public domain). Also, Noel make cogent argurments for listing historic and other composers whose works are not (yet) represented on CPDL, especially when useful information on the composer is provided. On the other side, at present, we have no mechanism for distinguishing between composers that have at least one work availalbe on CPDL and those who don't - and this skews the number of composers count in the CPDL statistics listed on the Main Page. Since the number of "unrepresented composers" is not too large (yet), I believe there is an acceptable remedy, as follows:

I shall make a new category Category:Composers (unhosted) - specifically for composers who have no scores available through CPDL - and a link to the new category page from the Category:Composers page. It will then be necessary to search out and change such composers' category. At such time when one or more works become available through CPDL, then the category designation would be changed by removing the " (unhosted)" status. I hope this meets with everyones approval

ChuckGiffen 09:17, 12 February 2007 (PST)

A good solution, well done Chuck! Bobnotts 11:47, 12 February 2007 (PST)

Having given this some more thought, I can provide a reason or two in support of the proposition that a even John Rutter deserves a page. First, let us assume that there is a John Rutter page, and that it contains a significant fraction of his works, including a listing for a composition for which he composed lyrics and music, "Donkey Carol". [Included in Carols for Choirs III, published by OUP]. Now consider an individual amongst the legion of choral conductors there who has been drafted to the position, despite the fact that they have only moderate enthusiasm for the post, and even less experience, and even less willingness to tell the clergyperson in charge "no". Now, imagine this conductor receiving a phone call from the clergyperson, just back from some gathering of clergypersons somewhere, in the course of which phone call, the clergy person relates that another clergyperson spoke quite highly of a compostion "Donkey carol", but that the name of the composer, or source for the composition was not part of the conversation, but that the clergyperson is certain the choral conductor can locate the source.

Under the circumstances as I have outlined them here, the choirmaster would take recourse to CPDL, type "Donkey Carol" in the search bar, and immediately find that Rutter wrote such that compositions, and be able to respond to he clergyperson's request, "Yes, Reverend Sir, I found the work, but it is only in a book, so we'll need to increase the choir budget this year by a sizeable amount in order to purchase a sufficient number of copies for the choir."

Or consider a slightly different version of the illustration: the clergy person, instead of relating a conversation about "Donkey Carol", relates that the colleague instead spoke quite highly of am arrangement of his favorite English Carol, "I Saw three ships", by John Rutter; taking recourse to the CPDL site, our conductor will quickly find the information that while he found that the Rutter edition is copyright, the same text is the basis for an arrangement on the CPDL site, form which it can be downloaded and reproduced without restriction.

A third reason I would argue for allowing pages for choral music composers is that the copyright protection afforded their compositions is transitory, and will end at some point. If a page is built for John Rutter now, it seems to me that it is more likely that obscure compositions are less likely to be missed when the time comes that his works can be added to the site. And I know this can happen, because I found a choral composition by Albert Ketelbey for Easter in a volume, and when I sought more information on it, learned that the person most knowledgeable about the body of Ketelbey's music was completely unaware of the existence of the work!

Lastly, I have to say that while I like the idea of a catagory for composers who have no scores yet posted to CPDL, I'm having trouble generating much enthusiasm for a category, "composers unhosted"as the nomenclature seems to me too vague, and ambiguous. I suggest naming the category "biography only", or "no scores", or even "bio only; no scores". Which also suggests the complementary category, "scores only; insufficient bio".

Noel Stoutenburg 0816 GMT 13 February, 2007