ChoralWiki talk:Seasonal music

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Update guidelines

This is week 38.

Week number calculation is based on the ISO 8601 International Standard:

  • Weeks start on a Monday
  • Weeks are measured W01 to W52/W53
  • W01 is the week containing the 4th of January or, equivalently, the first Thursday of the year
Week numbers for the following years
  2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022 2023 2024
January, 1st 01 53 52 01 01 01 53 52 52 01
January, 2nd 01 53 01 01 01 01 53 52 01 01
January, 3rd 01 53 01 01 01 01 53 01 01 01
January, 4th 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01 01
... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
December, 28 53 52 52 52 52 53 52 52 52 52
December, 29 53 52 52 52 52 53 52 52 52 52
December, 30 53 52 52 52 01 53 52 52 52 01
December, 31 53 52 52 01 01 53 52 52 52 01

There is no need to renumber all entries when the first week of a new year does not coincide with the current week numbering. Just change the line below in the code:

{{#switch: {{#time: W }}

and add (+1) or subtract (-1) a week:

{{#switch: {{#time: W |+1 week}}


Last Fall I made a bunch of entries of the form --> *[[:Category:Advent IV|Music for this Sunday, December 21]] <-- and fora while was updating Sunday nights by manually moving the commenting out brackets. One stage of automating things would be to have precoded entries advance at midnight on Sunday; another would be to have the date automatically supplied from the year's calendar; a third layer of complexity is dealing with the date of Easter! Any thoughts? Richard Mix (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi Richard. The first case is very simple to implement, I'll add the code for one or two sundays so you may have an idea of how it works. For specific dates it would work in a similar fashion. For Easter, things complicate a lot because of the various calculations involved, but it's not totally impossible to implement. Maybe for this specific case, it would be easier to add the dates by hand, since it's done just once a year. —Carlos Email.gif 15:57, 22 January 2015 (UTC)

Richard, using the week number function to select the appropriate Sunday revealed to be not as simple as I expected: please have a look at ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/Sandbox. It seems that not all years start in week "01" (e.g., 2016 starts as week 53 of 2015, quite strange!). The week numbers here also do not coincide with the week numbers of the w:Ordinary Time (see table in that page). It seems that I'll have to start the week calculation from scratch, basing myself on that Wikipedia article. A function that calculates the Easter day will also be necessary. I had a look at the way that the Easter date is calculated on Wikipedia, and it's a bit confusing. Unfortunately there isn't a template there that could be imported into CPDL without having to go through a large rewriting of the code. I'll keep you informed of any updates. —Carlos Email.gif 16:54, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the week number function (53 seems as good as 0 though) which I see days can be counted from, but there's plenty for me to chew on at WP! We want to fill in {{Cat|Pentecost VI|Music for this Sunday, dd Month}} and know OT12/Proper 7 is what Lutherans call the Sunday between June 19 and June 25 inclusive (I made a table at Ordinary Time as well) even though that may not be the 6th Sunday after Pentecost for churches following the old calendar (such choirs tend to be already quite canny though). After Christmas things get messy: sometimes Baptism gets moved to Monday instead of being the first Sunday of OT. Would it be cheating to just fill in Jan 11 for the first Sunday after Epiphany this year? ;-P
Before automation of the calendar through years, we have to create it for this year. It's presently stopped at February, 2nd, a day that's passed. Claude (talk) 16:31, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Yes Claude, a completely automated system will demand a lot of work, as it seems! In the mean time, a much simpler system can be developed that will just update "Seasonal music" once a week with whatever content had been previously assigned for that week. This can be done pretty fast; then someone will have to select the appropriate content for each week, as I lack the necessary knowledge for it. —Carlos Email.gif 18:36, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
If the much simpler version is set up I'd be happy to keep it going for a few years. Richard Mix (talk) 03:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Richard, the basic automation is up and running; it's really simple, you just have to add the appropriate links for each week, following the example of the ones already added by me. If you need to add more than one link, put one per line, as usual. Thanks, —Carlos Email.gif 04:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Hm! Did something happen to week 49? Richard Mix (talk) 08:50, 13 December 2016 (UTC)


I have made changes so the dates on this page will be translated on the Main Page, so far just French and Italian. But the words and phrases on this page are more numerous, and I wonder if it would be better if the material in the switch ("Music for this Sunday … ") was just a list of 52 dates – easier to automate, too. The extra dates and words are explained on the pages linked, so maybe they don't need to appear on the main page? — Barry Johnston (talk) 02:49, 5 February 2020 (UTC)

Hi Barry, Where is the translations being done, or should ChoralWiki talk:Seasonal music be the glossary page? An automated shortcut for the seasonal line ("Music for Epiphanytide, Sundays of Ordinary Time and Ash Wednesday (6 March)", soon to be replaced by "Music for Lent, Passiontide & Easter") would be most welcome: how would it be implemented? I think I can still sort of see how things work after the latest changes and figure out how to edit, but could there be a little more explaining please? As we get further away from English and use things like {{{Con|and}}} I start to worry for my successor ;-) Btw, kalendar with a K to avoid confusion with calendar is a standard usage among some Anglicans, believe it or not! Richard Mix (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Hi Richard. The Main Page has ten component pages: TopMatter, SearchSection, LatestNews, BrowseSection, ComposerSection, ScoreCatalogSection, Volunteers, Other languages, Seasonal music, and Latest scores. In these (including the Main Page itself) words and phrases of text are assigned code names. Each of these eleven pages has language subpages, for example, ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr is a subpage of ChoralWiki:Seasonal_music (see Main Page/fr for the overall result). These subpages provide the translations.
I have made test modifications of the last two pages, because when I asked Claude for his translations into French, he supplied me with a translation of the whole Seasonal music page without any codes. I codified his translations, which is what you see on my test pages, User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal and User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr. This is not quite finished. Is there no category for New Year (or New year's Day)? For these test pages, all of the seasonal lines are showing so I can make sure I did the codification right. I could arrange automation of these seasonal lines if you could tell me, which weeks (by number) would apply to which of the nine seasonal lines? (I assume the first and last would always appear).
I don't have complete translations for the Italian versions, and Max has said he is content with seeing the English text for Seasonal music. He is super busy just now anyway with bigger matters. I would be most interested in your comments on this system, especially whether it can be converted in future years. I might be able to automate the conversion a little more, so all you have to put in would be the dates, like
Lent 2        = 8 March
Ash Wednesday = 6 March
Let me know if that would help. Would you rather I used {{{And|and}}}? Also, "Kalendar" is strange to say the least. What does it mean? Cheers. — Barry Johnston (talk) 15:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, & last first, you can find Kalendar (The Catholic version is called the "Ordo") in some dictionaries; its virtue is distinguishing a prescribed succession of celebrations from the Proper of Saints/Calendar of Saints, 4th Sunday before Dec. 25, movable Easter cycles, and local feasts that all go into its making. If 2 arguments with a pipe are really necessary(?), {{{Or|or}}} & fr:OrText=ou does have a more intuitive feel than con[junction?], I think. Where do these abbreviations live, though? I also don't understand #switch or #time j F, and though I realize making a tutorial can be a lot of work, I get nervous not knowing how my editing might affect pages I don't even know about yet.

I'm coming to regret "This Sunday" since, besides minor variations in the 3-year kalendar/ordo, there are an increasing number of Extraordinary Form users who have been figuring out for themselves that their Quinquagesima is the last Sunday before Lent instead of the Sixth Sunday in Ordinary Time, and that the Arabic numeraled Easter 4 is followed by Easter 3 if one is observing Dominica II & III post Pascha. "Music for Ordinary Time 6/Epiphany 5 or Septuagesima" covers more bases. Richard Mix (talk) 23:25, 8 February 2020 (UTC)

I will change {{con|and}} to {{and|and}}, then.
The WikiMedia function {{#switch:{{#time: W }} … }} in this case, asks for Week number, and displays what follows the number; for this week it's 7. {{#time: j F|<Date>|{{{99|}}}}} displays the <date> in DD MMM format, in language 99 (which defaults to English). Switch is explained here, and time here.
You are the one designing the calendar part of the Seasonal music page, as far as I can tell. The codes ("abbreviations") start on this page; they were made by some person long ago, and I have added to them as needed; my codes tend to be shorter, since I have to key them in. My understanding of church calendars is very limited, since none of the churches I have attended over the years used a calendar. I think that whatever gets designed should meet the needs of most users, including those in languages other than English. My preference is to keep it a simple as possible, which would be to simply display the date as a link, then when a user chooses the date, a page appears where complications and alternative names are explained.
Another alternative would be to keep the simple "Music for this Sunday, <date>" and in addition offer a link to a page with a table that would explain the different calendars; that table could have columns for different years, with each row giving a week number.
By the way, I guess I understand the need to follow the ISO standard which dictates that weeks start on Monday, but in my (Christian) calendar the week starts on Sunday! "Early in the morning, on the first day of the week …". A picky thing, that I guess we can't change. — Barry Johnston (talk) 21:53, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

"the date as a link, then when a user chooses the date, a page appears" If there's to be a separate subpage for each of Music for 18 February, 2020 on through the decades, that starts to seem like more work ;-) than lining up a single page.

I really appreciate all the pointers! Google doesn't tell me whether "con" is something readily understood by programers: does it really stand for conjunction? As to "and", in this page's context ru:AndText=и works better than ru:AndText=а, but is machine translation feasible? Being from a paper and ink generation I'm perhaps unduly skeptical of automation, which has produced some impressive results with TextAutoList and #SortWorks (please see though a concern at Template talk:CheckMissing#A Byrd mystery). Yet I still think a novice might rather update Claude's ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr than figure out User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr. How would one edit
| 7 = *[[:Category:Quinquagesima|{{{MusicSunday|Music for this Sunday}}}, {{#time: j F|16 February|{{{99|}}}}}]]
to produce instead:

Richard Mix (talk) 01:04, 15 February 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the answer. I'm beginning to understand some of this now. I thought there were only two issues here, now I realize there are three: (1) Translation of ChoralWiki:SeasonalMusic into several languages; (2) Yearly revision of dates on the calendar; and now (3) Changes to the calendar. Let me start with your last question, which relates to issue (3):
"How would one edit | 7 = *[[:Category:Quinquagesima|{{{MusicSunday|Music for this Sunday}}}, {{#time: j F|16 February|{{{99|}}}}}]] to produce instead:
  • Music for OT/Epiphany 6 (3-year lectionaries) or Sexagesima ?" I admit it is a little obscure, but here's what it would look like:
| 7 = *{{{MusicFor|Music for}}} [[:Category:Quinquagesima|OT-Epiphany 6]] (3-year lectionaries) {{{Or|or}}} ''{{CC|Sexagesima}}'', {{#time: j F|16 February|{{{99|}}}}}
The triple curly-brackets indicate a code for translation, followed by the default (English) translation. I would have to go get translations for "3-year lectionaries"; also "OT". Notice I replaced slash with dash, for several reasons, the big one being slash is used a lot in programming. I assume you're asking to change every line in the calendar? May I ask, is the descriptive text something that changes year-to-year, or would it be relatively stable after the changes you're asking for? I can do the changes, if it's going to be stable over time, relatively.
Meanwhile, I have been busy on issue (2). Go to the main page, and put as an URL. When the date blanks are filled, this produces code that when pasted into a page, gives the yearly ChoralWiki:Seasonal music page. This will, I hope, make yearly updates easier – but it assumes that the form of the calendar doesn't change. The resulting page can easily be translated using a translation page like User:BarryJ/CWSeasonal/fr – which simply replaces the items in triple curly-brackets with their French equivalents instead of English, and auto-translates the dates.
The codes, {{{MusicFor|Music for}}}, {{{And|and}}}, etc., are devices made by our CPDL predecessors to facilitate translation; I added some codes, but they wouldn't be understandable outside the context of CW:Seasonal music. — Barry Johnston (talk) 04:55, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
We might need a new heading for some of your questions. OT, or in French TO, is tempus per annum and I hope Claude will tell us whether "lectionnaire de 3 annees" sounds weird or not. I've tried my hand at the upcoming week, but it's a question whether the date of the coming Sunday is actually needed. Richard Mix (talk) 22:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
Something that might be handy (besides a comment on this page to update other languages if possible) is a counter that says something like "Depuis la date de ce traduction on a modifié la page Anglais N fois". Richard Mix (talk) 23:01, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Automation part 2

The easy part of automating this page would be the Sundays after Trinity, when the 1970 Lectionaries count backwards from December 25, while the Tridentine Rite counts forward from the variable Pentecost, so two elements are necessary, with a third for Holy Days in the Proper of Saints, tied to calendar (without a "k") dates. Ordinary Time 28 is always the Sunday closest to Oct 12 and shares Propers with Pentecost XXII, but Extraordinary Form parishes will observe October 11 2020 as Pentecost XIX (while St. David's will commemorate the anniversary of the Dedication of a Church). Ordinary Time 31 is closest to Nov. 2, but is outranked by All Saints and All Souls if it falls on the 1st or 2nd. There will be local complications (I can make predictions that we'll celebrate Epiphany January 3 2021 and that All Saints will not be a Day of Obligation, falling on a Monday in 2021, but nothing's official until our diocese publishes its Ordo at the end of the year). Richard Mix (talk) 22:46, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

I am willing to create a form for yearly input of what you describe, looking something like this:
Red indicates material that would be part of the form, but not displayed on the Seasonal music page. Dotted boxes and underline would be optional. Of course there would be 52 lines, not just three. — Barry Johnston (talk) 04:47, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
That isn't really automation; does it have an advantage over the status quo? The third element mostly depends on the civil calendar; the Tridentine 2nd element might be next easiest: once the week of Easter is known you have a fairly fixed sequence Septuagesima, Sexagesima, Quinquagesima with a heads-op for Ash Wednesday, Lent I … Easter 2|Domenica in albis, Easter 4|II post paschua, Easter 3|III p.p., Easter 5|IV p.p., Pentecost, Trinity, Pentecost II-XXII, and repeat Pentecost XXIII until Advent I … Epiphany III. [Epiphany III repeats as needed too]. Richard Mix (talk) 10:52, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
I agree that really isn't automation. In order to automate this, I would need to have a format for lines, and of course what to put in the fields. What should a line look like? Your version of week 8 looks like:
Music for Sunday, <date>: <alias for category1> or <category2> or <category3>, including <category4>, <date for category4> – where everything after the first category is optional.
In order to facilitate this, I made a calendar through 2030 ( in spreadsheet form. If we knew just Category1 for all of these, I could make pages for all those years, that could be added to as needed. Or would you prefer a different format? — Barry Johnston (talk) 01:34, 19 February 2020 (UTC)
That sounds a bit like what I'm already doing but crammed into a less leisurely schedule, maybe minus the Week 1/Week 53 angst. As far as format, as long as it can be changed/edited I'd be happy to look over a test version. Richard Mix (talk) 06:00, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
I sent you an email with the test version for 2020-2023. — Barry Johnston (talk) 18:46, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Updated Ash Wednesday

I updated Ash Wednesday for this year (26 February) ... apparently omitted when the 2020 update was done. -- Chucktalk Giffen 19:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Automation redux

Like many choir directors I've been laid off from church work: this year the weeks after New Years came out the same, although with dates that were a bit off. I've updated Ash Wed. thru Corpus Christi but Week 24 is empty for the time being.

Barry, what about a module for the uncomplicated part of the year? We'd need:

Music for [link|this Sunday], [DD Month] [and [Saint's day], DD Month]

where [link] is the Category for the "Nearest date" column at Ordinary Time and where Template:Observed catches upcoming Holidays , if any.

Later the [link] could swap for Easter and Christmas sequences, for which only a starting date is needed. Richard Mix (talk) 00:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Having just finished the technical cleanup of 2022 version of this page, I did a comparison of the recent three years ( ). I can't imagine that complete automation will be possible. I have better hope of partially automating the page composition process; but better would be an complete instruction page. — Barry Johnston (talk) 17:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm quite sure that in principle machines can follow the same rules humans do. Don't put overmuch faith in 2021, when there was little motivation for me to check everything. Can we begin to break up the work with
  1. a function to identify the date of Sundays (not easy, it seems)
  2. a numbering of the invariable 10 Lent-Corpus Christi Sundays that adds to the week number of Ash Wednesday (Lent I on week n + 1, …)
  3. a separate module to add fixed-date Sanctorial holidays to their week
Richard Mix (talk) 09:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
I wrote a rough proposal, based in part on your recent posts – sent it to you by email. Let me know if you didn't get it. — Barry Johnston (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr

What should I do for ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr (dates of January and February 2021 sundays were left with last year dates and nobody protested) remove the page? Claude (talk) 11:00, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

There are probably fewer working church musicians in France too! It's become rare for me to look at a calendar (and I mistakenly assumed automation had taken things over), but perhaps the changes to the :en code thru Eastertide are clear enough for you to carry over; Ash Wednesday is coming up next week. Richard Mix (talk) 02:56, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
After rereading the above #Translation, I'm grateful you were the one to figure ChoralWiki:Seasonal music/fr out, Claude! Richard Mix (talk) 00:01, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Something wrong with line 2

Week 7 was supposed to switch on the Lent mid-range planning 2nd line, but it now displays Easter - Corpus Christi, which I expected to begin week 14. What bit of code am I blind to? Richard Mix (talk) 12:17, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Aha, Janus was facing the other way ;-) (that is to say, the switch is triggered by a blank line) Richard Mix (talk) 22:30, 6 March 2021 (UTC)