Category talk:Introits

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Introit vs Introits

Why change the title of the page from singular to plural?

Noel Stoutenburg 0852 GMT 19 February, 2007

I created this page because it seemed to me that it is now in line with other similar categories (ie. that it is plural rather than singular.) See Category:Masses, Category:Anthems and Category:Motets. Bobnotts 05:02, 19 February 2007 (PST)

Category Introitus???

The proposed disambiguation, Introit and Introitus, seems needlessly confusing. How about:

An introit (introitus) is the proper antiphon used to accompany the entrance procession at Mass. It usually takes the form antiphon-Psalm verse-Gloria Patri-antiphon but may be extended with extra psalm verses (with repetitions of the antiphon) for some long processions.
In some American Protestant traditions the name Introit is given to the Call to Worship, a short 'entering' into the spirit of prayer at the beginning of service. Amy Beach's miniatures fall into this category.

Richard Mix 21:57, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, Richard. I created this category back in 2007 so that I could categorise a couple of introits I know are often used at the beginning of Church of England services. My experience of other religious uses of "introits" at that point was even less than my current appreciation, which is still limited. I think that your suggestion points to a much broader issue: how should we categorise works that may be used in different branches of Christianity, indeed, other religions? I know this is an issue that has been discussed many times in the same narrow context that you have suggested above, about categorisation of works in Liturgical music, Antiphons, Hymns, Motets categories and others. Before you posted your message, above, I had been thinking more broadly about the issue (honestly!) and I would like to suggest a larger scale discussion. I'd like it to be a consultation with all CPDL users and contributors, in which we consider the following questions (amongst others):
  1. How should we categorise sacred works on CPDL? Should we have a category for every liturgical use of a work in any religion?
  2. Where there is overlap, should we categorise the work in both the "Catholic" and "Anglican" categories?
    1. How should we distinguish the categorisation of Motets and Anthems?
  3. To what extent should we be considering contributors of vocal music which have their roots in other religions? Are some contributors currently put off because this site currently conatins mostly music used in Christian worship or is this just symptomatic of the position that music has in the Christian church?
Additionally, I think giving one user the responsibility to encourage and marshal discussion and come to a conclusion by a realistic deadline would hopefully make the discussion more meaningful. I would be willing to take this on if no-one else is interested in the responsibility. I'm not suggesting that I have all the answers but I think I can commit enough time to the project to get to a decision, even if it isn't perfect. This is all a bit off the top of my head at the moment but I thought I'd raise this rather than not at all. --Bobnotts talk 06:04, 8 June 2010 (UTC)
By all means! Were you thinking of the CPDL forums, or (maybe better) the parent Category talk:Sacred music?
I withdraw my geographical reference above; Wood, Wesley et al should have tipped me off right away... Richard Mix 09:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Essay length response to Bob

Good posting Bob, and the issue does need to be considered broadly, since even within Christianity the vast majority of sacred music on CPDL falls under the Western church (i.e. the Roman church, and the denominations that split off from it in the second millennium), rather than being representative of the totality of Christians including e.g. the Greek and Russian Orthodox, let alone many other national churches and offshoots.

The proposed disambiguation to split Introit and Introitus seems nebulously specious. Irrespective of terminology, the various types of music serve the same introductory liturgical function, and so the question is whether all of the pieces meeting the wider definition (i.e. introductory music at the beginning of a religious service) should be separate from, or subsume, or include the smaller, technical category of introit (which would be defined as musical settings of the Introit sentence in the Roman Catholic mass). It comes down to whether you want to "lump" related types together, or "split" types based on differences.

The argument for "lumping" related works together is that isn't CPDL's job to adjudicate what type of works can or can't be employed liturgically: categorisation should be based on the primary apparent usage of the piece, insofar as it is obvious, rather than trying to categorise the work under any potential usage that is imaginable. If Anton Bruckner wrote a setting of an Introit text then that should be its classification, rather than trying to work out what other possible performance context the piece could be worked into. The argument for "splitting" apart types of works would be symptomatic of the sectarian divide between religions and the many separate branches within them – to classify works as "Catholic" or "Anglican" and hold them in isolated categories would be in denial of the frequent usage of music written for one liturgy being co-opted into another. For instance, the same Bruckner introit would quite possibly be at home as a motet in an Anglican (or other denomination's) service that referenced the same theological matter as set in the Catholic text.

To get around to answering (partly) your questions:

1. Categorise them as "sacred", but there is no need to have a category for every possible liturgical use – firstly, because until a particular type of work is uploaded to CPDL, there is no need to create an otherwise empty category which would form the niche that the piece occupies; and secondly, because most pieces of sacred music have actually been composed with an identifiable primary purpose, and so should be able to fit into either fairly general or narrow categories, again owing to what works are already in the CPDL collection.
2. I can see how one could define categories for music that is for the Catholic liturgy versus the Anglican (or Lutheran... or any other denomination with particular liturgical specifications) but would be fairly sure the interface between the categories would be rather porous. For example, communion services in English using the words of the BCP would not be tolerated in the Catholic mass – but new settings with the recent modern language translations could easily sneak in (with a few very minor changes).
2.1. Motets and anthems as far as I'm aware, don't represent different types of composition based on religious denomination. Motet was the name given to generic polyphonic compositions that set specific texts (and not always sacred either) to music, borrowing from the French word for a word, "mot"; the derivation of "anthem" is rather more obscure, possibly being a corruption of the latin "antiphon", but primarily being an English word and characteristic of English settings of texts – historically, the word was not translated back across into Continental usage. So "anthems" would possibly be a subset of "motets", specifically motet settings of English texts...
3. I well remember one of my friends submitting a work in a non-existent category which was quickly deleted by Bob, before being later reinstated – it was the first piece of "pagan" music uploaded to CPDL. (Since the days of persecuting pagans for non-Christian beliefs are mostly relegated to history, albeit comparably recently, the composition of religious music for pagan observances has only just started again in earnest.)
I am slightly bemused that there aren't more pieces submitted to CPDL that are of liturgical use for non-Christian world, but having English as a dominant first language for the site perhaps unwittingly helps marginalise other religions that do use music liturgically. The notation of some of this music may be another issue – I am not aware if music sung in synagogues or mosques coordinates the right-to-left script of Jewish or Arabic with a version of Western musical notation, or if it is learned and memorised completely by ear.

Despite having a good working knowledge of sacred music across several Christian traditions I am more or less ignorant of the non-Christian traditions by both upbringing and musical experience (and I would probably not be the only CPDL contributor in that boat). So anyone who does have additional insights to share would be most welcome at providing another voice of advice.

Regards, Philip LeggeΦ talk @ mail 04:08, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

cheering from the sidelines, my 2 cents

I'm thrilled that this larger meta discussion is being tackled, and would be really glad if you would take this on as a project, Rob, because the current lack of structure creased inconsistencies.

I can see Anthems as a subset of Motets, or using Motets to refer to the remaining non-English music that doesn't have a category of its own the way Anthems does. If Motets is applied to secular motets, I'd like to see them treated similarly to Anthems with a separate category or sub-category. Mostly, I'm just glad if people who are more expert than I am can develop a more structured approach and guidelines, so that there can be more consistency (such as whether an Anthem is categorized under Anthems or Motets).

Tx for being willing to dive in. -- Vaarky 01:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Some more large-scale discussion

I'd kind of like to settle whether Category:Calls to Worship or :Category:Introituses should be the new blue link, but it is tempting to achieve world peace at the same time and answer some interesting questions:

1. I've started tackling the mass propers and specifically Category:Sundays after Pentecost; I've also made mostly red categories for Introits (which might get renamed), Graduals &c.
2. Best to make the categories themselves overlap: I've made some redirects from OT 7 and plan at some point a table in an article on Ordinary Time; the same could be done for Proper III, Trinity 2 and other systems. The historical Tridentine calendar is perhaps the most relevant to the majority of music likely to be categorized, but certainly Sarum variants should be noted when possible.
2.1. I've noticed Timebunt (Josef von Eybler) is categorized as an anthem instead of a motet, maybe based on the orchestral accpt. I think Category:Mass propers is probably a more useful supercategory for Graduals, since it could include non-latin works such as Luther's paraphrases.
3. To the extent there is stuff submitted to categorize! It would be particularly good at this point in time to recruit an expert in the Eastern rite since we have so much Slavonic rep. already. I cant say for sure myself how much dual-use psalmody might exist.

Btw, when is that deadline? ;-) Richard Mix 06:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC) Richard Mix 06:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)